Passenger Trains > Scranton to Hoboken Link still being discussed

Picture and article:  https://www.thetimes-tribune.com/news/state-offers-new-plan-but-no-money-for-nyc-passenger-train/article_81d5cce1-53fa-5917-ba30-b0af9fb7a9fb.html

Article from Scranton Times:State transportation officials will listen to public comments during online hearings on a draft plan laying out future spending on railroads, including the proposed Scranton to metro New York City passenger train.The draft plan’s bottom line recommendation on the passenger train: no money, no schedule.In fact, the plan simply lists the project — near the bottom of its list of proposed passenger rail projects. U.S. Rep. Matt Cartwright, D-8, Moosic, said the low standing “is actually appropriate” because the project has many hurdles remaining before it’s ready for funding.“We have a lot of ducks to get in line yet before we’re in a position to be at the top of that list,” Cartwright said.To register to join the public meetings, visit the state rail plan website, www.planthekeystone.com/Pages/PA-State-Rail-Plan.aspx. The public meetings are scheduled for 4 to 5 p.m. today and 6 to 7 p.m. Tuesday.The long-planned train would run 133 miles between Scranton and Hoboken, New Jersey, where travelers could hop on another train to get into New York City. New Jersey Transit, the state’s main public transportation provider, would operate the train. A 2006 study pegged the cost at $551 million and the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation increased that to $650 million in its responses to comments on the project in its 2015 rail plan.However, an estimate developed with money Cartwright gathered from state, federal and local sources, said it would cost about $288.9 million just to reinstall tracks, upgrade two major bridges and carry out other related work necessary to have continuous rail between the two cities. The 2006 study included the cost of railroad stations and other equipment.Earlier this year, New Jersey Transit issued a 10-year transportation plan with no new money for the project beyond existing plans to extend its service about 7.3 miles along the famed 28.45-mile Lackawanna Cutoff between Port Morris and Andover. Restoring the cutoff track, removed in the 1980s, and upgrading the bridges are considered the most important factors in resuming the service, which ended in January 1970. New Jersey Transit is in the process of screening potential contractors for the project’s next step, the rehabilitation of the Roseville Tunnel on the 7.3-mile stretch.Contractors must submit qualifications by Dec. 16, according to an online New Jersey Transit calendar.After that, Cartwright said New Jersey Transit expects to have a list of qualified contractors by February with New Jersey Transit choosing a bidder in June and construction expected to begin in September.That project alone could take two years and doesn’t include repairing a culvert and reinstalling the remaining 3.1 miles of track, said Tom Drabic, principal transportation planner for Sussex County, through which the train would run.Earlier this year, a New Jersey Transit spokeswoman said trains wouldn’t run on that track until at least the second half of 2026.No agency has plans to reinstall the other 21 miles and upgrade the bridges.Pennsylvania’s 2015 state rail plan put the project on its “vision list,” but PennDOT sharply questioned its usefulness in response to advocates’ comments.PennDOT pointed out the Federal Railroad Administration does not fund commuter-rail projects and the Federal Transit Administration found the project met none of the “primary minimum funding criteria.” PennDOT also said the Scranton-to-Hoboken trip would take longer than by car.“If advances in technology or a new opportunity arises that can advance this project forward within the financial and scheduling constraints of the FRA, FTA and PennDOT, we can reassess the project,” PennDOT wrote.

Nothing has changed in 25 years. 

More like 40 years

Didn't Amtrak run a "demonstration trip" from Hoboken to Scranton back in the 1970s?

Right before Conrail offered it for sale, and nobody wanted it...

This is a classic gov't. boondoggle if there ever was one. This has been " studied" to death at a cost of millions of taxpayer dollars and unless gasoline goes to $ 10/gallon in a hurry and is rationed this will never get built. Biggest challenge is it requires the close cooperation of the politicos in both Pa. & NJ. As both states are nearly bankrupt there's zero appetitie for a new rail project costing in the tens of millions. 

   Hopefully it will somehow not spawn another " study " ???

   Ross Rowland 

NJ doesn't want to pay for any restoration to the PA state line because there is basically nothing there for about 27 miles between Andover and the Delaware river. NJT is also mid- Manhattan-centric and does not see the value of taking Pennsylvania commuters to their Jersey jobs, which is the majority of auto commuter traffic crossing the Water Gap.  

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> NJ doesn't want to pay for any restoration to the
> PA state line because there is basically nothing
> there for about 27 miles between Andover and the
> Delaware river. NJT is also mid- Manhattan-centric
> and does not see the value of taking Pennsylvania
> commuters to their Jersey jobs, which is the
> majority of auto commuter traffic crossing the
> Water Gap.  

Yes.

One of those many studies showed the PA residents often traveing to places like Parsippany, Wyckoff, Bridgewater, etc.

 

At the rate NJ Transit is building the Andover extension, I think there's a decent chance of rebuilding the rest of the Cutoff within the next 500 years.

They can't even get to Andover, NJ, where environmental concerns have tied up the project for years.

State of New Jersey money spent on rebuilding the Cutoff between Port Morris/UN, Andover, and the Pennsylvania State Line is a waste. Any passenger boarding a train at Andover can merely drive south a few miles on Rt 206 and board at Mt. Olive. Monies would be much better spent on electrifying trackage between Dover and Port Morris and extending existing MidTOWN Direct service to Port Morris. Platforms at the existing Mt. Arlington station (located between Dover and Port Morris)  can extended and the parking lot converted into a parking garage. This station is adjacent to busy Interstate 80.  Pennsylvania commuters can then park their autos in Mt. Arlington and jump on a Big Apple bound train. Extending the service to Port Morris would then allow NJ Transit to get rid of the existing Dover Yard, allowing for a possible new mixed-use residential/commercial development.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> Didn't Amtrak run a "demonstration trip" from
> Hoboken to Scranton back in the 1970s?

Yes.  In 1979 I think it was.

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Is the old Erie Line still available between Port Jervis and Scranton?  Pretty much cuts out NJ, except on the lower end south of Suffern.

sums007 Wrote:
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> Is the old Erie Line still available between Port
> Jervis and Scranton?  Pretty much cuts out NJ,
> except on the lower end south of Suffern.

There's no direct connection between Port Jervis and Scranton - you'd have to go through Binghamton.  Otherwise, the closest you could get is Honesdale via the slow, scenic route through Port Jervis and Lackawaxen.  I just rode on the Honesdale branch, which is a nice excursion ride, but not exactly time competitive for commuter service!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/20 10:46 by hsr_fan.

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This is really more of an intercity route than a commuter route.  Even the crack trains of the DL&W/EL took over 3 hours from Hoboken to Scranton, and I doubt many in Scranton would be making that commute.  A decade or so ago, Amtrak was asked by New York State to study service from Scranton to Binghamton; not sure what ever became of that study.  Obviously that further complicates the project if you get NYS involved, but it would increase the pool of resources available for the heavy lift of getting the cutoff rebuilt.  Or it might just be more money in the pockets of the consultants while the Delaware River viaduct slowly crumbles.  Probably that one.

NYSW252 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> State of New Jersey money spent on rebuilding the
> Cutoff between Port Morris/UN, Andover, and the
> Pennsylvania State Line is a waste. Any passenger
> boarding a train at Andover can merely drive south
> a few miles on Rt 206 and board at Mt. Olive.
> Monies would be much better spent on electrifying
> trackage between Dover and Port Morris and
> extending existing MidTOWN Direct service to Port
> Morris. Platforms at the existing Mt. Arlington
> station (located between Dover and Port Morris)
>  can extended and the parking lot converted into
> a parking garage. This station is adjacent to busy
> Interstate 80.  Pennsylvania commuters can then
> park their autos in Mt. Arlington and jump on a
> Big Apple bound train. Extending the service to
> Port Morris would then allow NJ Transit to get rid
> of the existing Dover Yard, allowing for a
> possible new mixed-use residential/commercial
> development.

The idea is an alternative to auto congestion across the Gap and the western portions of I-80 in New Jersey. I-80 cannot be expanded between Stroudsburg and Exit 4 in NJ, most of it being the old, substandard I-46 and 209. This is true rush hours, and also Friday and Sundays for weekend travel, not commuters. So the traffic in western New Jersey is generated by Pennsylvania.   Who should pay for that ?

The issue is somewhat complicated by the loss of state senator Bob Littel (R-Sussex) who was a power in the Republican party for decades. And of US representative Rod Frelinghuysen (R-11). He was a power on the appropriations committee, and kept the tap flowing for funds from DC.

The underlying issue is many Susses county residents don't want the train. Don't want the sprawl. Don't want change.  If there was a strong demand for their commuter train, which there doesn't seem to be, maybe it would have happened.

https://www.wanderu.com/en-us/depart/Scranton%2C%20PA%2C%20USA/New%20York%2C%20NY%2C%20USA/2020-11-18/?cur=USD&dpid=ChIJOwg_06VPwokRYv534QaPC8g&opid=ChIJu0tIdzrZxIkR6PqbqyB58v8

First, before any NJT passenger rail service crosses the Delaware into Northeastern PA, Gateway Project must be completed. The brand new North River Tunnels can't come soon enough as well as rehabbing the original ones. Next, I really don't think NJT should be running the entire way from NYC or Hoboken to Scranton-that's too long of a ride to be sitting in commuter rail equipment. NJT can just go as far as E. Stroudsburg. That's long enough anyway but closer than going to Scranton. Remember that there are too many sharp curves along the route north of Stroudsburg and before any regularly scheduled passenger rail continues to Scranton, many of those curves should be replaced.

Why must Gateway come first ? That may not be for 20 years. These trains can run to Hoboken, and most people from Pennsylvania are headed for North Jersey in any case. Mt Pocono would be the commercial end of most trips. Traffic backups on I-80, especially Sunday PM, can extend all the way back to Tannersville and Scotrun.

Because Gateway will provide double the track capacity for trains traveling into and out of NYC Penn Station. Two tracks isn't sufficient enough to have the trains running to the Poconos. Things will get interesting when NJT starts running to Andover. It's not going to be a very fast ride from there to NWK, Hoboken, and NYC, even running express from NWK Broad to Summit. I think people who live in Andover, even after the train starts running there, will probably continue to either go to Dover or Denville to get their train in those towns.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/20 16:29 by Passfanatic.