Passenger Trains > Rebuilding Quality Passenger Cars

On a prior thread there is a beautiful video of the CSX Office Car Train with all re-built passenger cars and all now painted in the famous Baltimore & Ohio Railroad passenger colors of Blue and Gray.  This train reminds all of us older folks of the good-ole-days of the famous B&O Passenger Trains such as the "Royal Blue" and the "Capitol Limited."  I brought up the subject that there is no doubt in my mind that since CSX and other Class I Railroads can rebuild older passenger cars into quality office and specialty cars, there certainly should be other companies here in our country who could do the same for Amtrak.  Oh, I read where some say that comparing the rebuilt office cars cannot be compared to regular passenger cars in that these office cars are only used periodically whereas regular passenger cars generate so much more wear and tear with daily mileage.  I agree that regular cars will ring up a lot more hard mileage with day to day operations.  However; with a complete rebuild of these older light-weight passenger cars from the late 1940's and 1950's I feel certain that we here in America can do this properly so that they can work in everyday service for Amtrak and probably for a lot less money than what these newer unpopular cars now cost.  This is just an opinion that I have and an opinion that I share with many others, especially folks who actually have worked on railroads from the past.
John in White Marsh, Maryland

ClubCar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On a prior thread there is a beautiful video of
> the CSX Office Car Train with all re-built
> passenger cars and all now painted in the famous
> Baltimore & Ohio Railroad passenger colors of Blue
> and Gray.  This train reminds all of us older
> folks of the good-ole-days of the famous B&O
> Passenger Trains such as the "Royal Blue" and the
> "Capitol Limited."  I brought up the subject that
> there is no doubt in my mind that since CSX and
> other Class I Railroads can rebuild older
> passenger cars into quality office and specialty
> cars, there certainly should be other companies
> here in our country who could do the same for
> Amtrak.  Oh, I read where some say that comparing
> the rebuilt office cars cannot be compared to
> regular passenger cars in that these office cars
> are only used periodically whereas regular
> passenger cars generate so much more wear and tear
> with daily mileage.  I agree that regular cars
> will ring up a lot more hard mileage with day to
> day operations.  However; with a complete rebuild
> of these older light-weight passenger cars from
> the late 1940's and 1950's I feel certain that we
> here in America can do this properly so that they
> can work in everyday service for Amtrak and
> probably for a lot less money than what these
> newer unpopular cars now cost.  This is just an
> opinion that I have and an opinion that I share
> with many others, especially folks who actually
> have worked on railroads from the past.
> John in White Marsh, Maryland

It’s easier to produce high quality cars in smaller quantities.

Most of the places that could do such a rebuild probably only have space for a small handful of cars and take a long time to rebuild them. Anything can be done for the right price and on a drawn out schedule.

Amtrak has its own shops at Beech Grove and Bear that handle its rebuilds. They would probably run into major union issues (which shouldn’t be an impediment, but that’s a topic for another item) if they outsource this kind of work.

Posted from iPhone

Amtrak can easily rebuild their own cars at Beech Grove into Quality Passenger Cars. The rebuilt Superliner I sleepers are quite nice.

Alas, they don't have funding.

A few years ago I was riding the Pacific Surfliner in to L.A. and I heard a passenger comment on the "old" cars! 

ClubCar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> with a complete rebuild
> of these older light-weight passenger cars from
> the late 1940's and 1950's I feel certain that we
> here in America can do this properly so that they
> can work in everyday service for Amtrak and
> probably for a lot less money than what these
> newer unpopular cars now cost.  

John, what new cars do you feel are unpopular?  Maybe Amfleet and Horizon cars from the seventies and eighties?  Those are hardly new though.  Also, what fleet of 40s and 50s cars exists in enough numbers to be practical for rebuild?  I think Amtrak was quick to get rid of its few remaining specialty cars, such as the Pacific Parlors and Great Dome 10031, but these types of antiques can only fill a small role in enhancing a particular train or charter.  There simply aren't enough old cars around anymore to provide a common fleet for daily service.  

Dave

What level of compliance to the accessibility guidelines under the Americans With Disabiities Act
are remanufacted passenger railcars subject to?

DavidP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John, what new cars do you feel are unpopular?
>  Maybe Amfleet and Horizon cars from the
> seventies and eighties?  Those are hardly new
> though.  Also, what fleet of 40s and 50s cars
> exists in enough numbers to be practical for
> rebuild?  I think Amtrak was quick to get rid of
> its few remaining specialty cars, such as the
> Pacific Parlors and Great Dome 10031, but these
> types of antiques can only fill a small role in
> enhancing a particular train or charter.  There
> simply aren't enough old cars around anymore to
> provide a common fleet for daily service.  
>
> Dave

Thanks Dave for your reply.  To me and other older folks, the new cars are the ones that were built for Amtrak in the 70's and 80's.  I understand where you are coming from about whether or not there are enough old cars around; however, with the new restrictions that Amtrak imposed on private cars, there probably are many different types of cars now sitting idle, not just the luxury ones we think about, but others all around the entire country that are owned by NRHS Chapters that no longer operate excursions and various dinner trains and other excursion rail lines that no longer operate as examples.  I know that this probably is a "pie-in-the-sky" idea, but to me it is worth a shot at trying to improve our passenger service in our country.  Could there be that many cars?  I don't know as I have not gone around to see what might be available; however I'll bet that there could be anywhere from 50 to 100 or more such cars around the entire country that could be candidates for complete rebuilding as not all the older discarded ex-Amtrak and other class one railroads have wound up in the scrap yards.  Obviously not all of these old cars would be worth trying to rebuild; however, it would be nice to have as many as possible back in operation rather than going about trying to get some overseas builder to produce cars for our American Passenger Service.  Just my opinion, thank you.
John in White Marsh, Maryland

There is nothing stopping the construction of quality NEW cars of a level and for a service much higher than being provided now excet for politics.

In my kitchen there are implements that were already old 40 years ago when I was a child and they are still working now.  There are other implments I must buy new every couple of years because the only manufacturers are overseas and provide the lowest quality garbage and that is all that is available to purchase.

Its the same politics that contentedly watched ACF, St. Louis Car, Pullman and Budd die and then asks why the US can't build rail cars.

We can't build nice railcars for the same reason we can't make enough steel for our own needs or why we can't make consumer products that last.  Its more important for a few people on Wall Street and in Washington DC to be very rich and to hyponitize the people with technological gadgetry so that they don't notice they are being impoverished.

Think about it.  The materials still exist in the ground.  Human labor is still available to fashion them.  The land where the factories stood which made them is still there but now stands vacant.  The demand to use the products exist if they are supplied.  So what is the missing ingredient?

Yes, but folks want to be paid more than companies can sell stuff for in this country which is why it's being made elsewhere.
It is possible that newer manufacturing technology will change that.

Also, the older cars won't meet ADA requirements that folks my age (85) need. Like having to climb stairs or get a wheelchair
thru a door...

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

There is also the advantage of having a standardized fleet.  There are so many variations in the older cars.  Just the difference between having a 75' car and an 80' car and the seating arrangements would be different, the number of seats as an example.  Different restroom arrangements, different plumbing, different electrical, different HVAC, and the list goes on and on.  It's much easier to maintain a fleet of only a few models, IE Superliner I, Superliner II, two series' of Veiwliners, or Amfleets, etc...

John

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is nothing stopping the construction of
> quality NEW cars of a level and for a service much
> higher than being provided now excet for
> politics.
>
> In my kitchen there are implements that were
> already old 40 years ago when I was a child and
> they are still working now.  There are other
> implments I must buy new every couple of years
> because the only manufacturers are overseas and
> provide the lowest quality garbage and that is all
> that is available to purchase.
>
> Its the same politics that contentedly watched
> ACF, St. Louis Car, Pullman and Budd die and then
> asks why the US can't build rail cars.
>
> We can't build nice railcars for the same reason
> we can't make enough steel for our own needs or
> why we can't make consumer products that last. 
> Its more important for a few people on Wall Street
> and in Washington DC to be very rich and to
> hyponitize the people with technological gadgetry
> so that they don't notice they are being
> impoverished.
>
> Think about it.  The materials still exist in the
> ground.  Human labor is still available to
> fashion them.  The land where the factories stood
> which made them is still there but now stands
> vacant.  The demand to use the products exist if
> they are supplied.  So what is the missing
> ingredient?

Steel is imported for a couple of reasons. Cost or the specific type of steel needed is not available, right now, but is available from a foreign firm.
 

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is nothing stopping the construction of
> quality NEW cars of a level and for a service much
> higher than being provided now excet for
> politics.
>
> In my kitchen there are implements that were
> already old 40 years ago when I was a child and
> they are still working now.  There are other
> implments I must buy new every couple of years
> because the only manufacturers are overseas and
> provide the lowest quality garbage and that is all
> that is available to purchase.
>
> Its the same politics that contentedly watched
> ACF, St. Louis Car, Pullman and Budd die and then
> asks why the US can't build rail cars.
>
> We can't build nice railcars for the same reason
> we can't make enough steel for our own needs or
> why we can't make consumer products that last. 
> Its more important for a few people on Wall Street
> and in Washington DC to be very rich and to
> hyponitize the people with technological gadgetry
> so that they don't notice they are being
> impoverished.
>
> Think about it.  The materials still exist in the
> ground.  Human labor is still available to
> fashion them.  The land where the factories stood
> which made them is still there but now stands
> vacant.  The demand to use the products exist if
> they are supplied.  So what is the missing
> ingredient?

I agree with you 100%.

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------
>
> Steel is imported for a couple of reasons. Cost or
> the specific type of steel needed is not
> available, right now, but is available from a
> foreign firm.
>  

It is not available because the steel plants in this country have LONG CLOSED....??!!

Posted from Android

Actually, American steel production is about the same as in 1940.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_and_steel_industry_in_the_United_States#/media/File:USGS_Iron-Steel_1900-2014.png

The difference is that it's mostly recycled now. And yes, there is strong price competition from imports.

As for office cars: they generally run once or twice a month, maybe, for a few hundred miles average. Assuming LDs return to daily, Amtrak runs the wheels off its cars. Office cars get tender loving care by special mechanics, and the RR execs don't really care how much money is consumed in the process. Amtrak must maintain cars with real-world labor, in real-world shops, and under real-world budgets. Office cars can be one-offs. Amtrak needs uniformity across large fleets. Office cars are ridden by relatively few people who are careful about what they do onboard. Amtrak cars are ridden by real-world people who spill, tear, deface, etc. 
 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/21 09:43 by ctillnc.

ctillnc Wrote:

> As for office cars: they generally run once or
> twice a month, maybe, for a few hundred miles
> average. Assuming LDs return to daily, Amtrak
> runs the wheels off its cars. Office cars get
> tender loving care by special mechanics, and the
> RR execs don't really care how much money is
> consumed in the process. Amtrak must maintain cars
> with real-world labor, in real-world shops,
> and under real-world budgets. Office cars can be
> one-offs. Amtrak needs uniformity across large
> fleets. Office cars are ridden by relatively few
> people who are careful about what they do
> onboard. Amtrak cars are ridden by real-world
> people who spill, tear, deface, etc.
>  
I agree 100%.  I said the same thing in the other post.  100-year-old office cars are museum pieces, not suited to current Amtrak use.  40-50 year old cars frequently suffer from center sill issues which are the death of a rail car.  Either way, the TLC required for these cars would not be fiscally responsible for Amtrak.

ns1000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PHall Wrote:
> -------------------------------------
> >
> > Steel is imported for a couple of reasons. Cost
> or
> > the specific type of steel needed is not
> > available, right now, but is available from a
> > foreign firm.
> >  
>
> It is not available because the steel plants in
> this country have LONG CLOSED....??!!
>
> Posted from Android

Well if the steel plants in the US have closed, then why are the ore boats up on the Great Lakes still running?
They're hauling a lot of iron ore somewhere....

MojaveBill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, but folks want to be paid more than companies
> can sell stuff for in this country which is why
> it's being made elsewhere.
> It is possible that newer manufacturing technology
> will change that.

Labor costs are a minor input into most manufactured goods these days.  In steel manufacturing, labor is less thn 1/6th of the cost.

However, this can't possibly be the reason for rail cars.  Rail cars are mostly made worldwide by higher end skilled labor in labor expensive countries like Japan, Germany, France, etc.  Only in the US is there some perceived need to pay assembly labor $12 an hour to manufacture rail cars, like Rotem did in Philadelphia.

So what could the real reason be?

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steel is imported for a couple of reasons. Cost or
> the specific type of steel needed is not
> available, right now, but is available from a
> foreign firm.

The US is capable of making all types and qualities of steel, and we certainly build new mills often enough in this country.  Why are we importing any steel at all?  Saying its not being done is begging the question.

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Why are we
> importing any steel at all? 

For the same reasons other countries import steel from the US - cost, delivery times, availability of specific products, etc.  In 2019 the US exported 7.1M metric tons of milled steel product, while importing 26.3M metric tons.  All part of the global supply chain.

Dave

There are many industries where we simultaneously import and export the same goods. Stopping imports would result in immediate retaliation by other countries. Collapse of the American businesses that export would quickly follow. That's not a good outcome for the nation overall. 

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/21 07:42 by ctillnc.