European Railroad Discussion > Midland Pullman

In the 1960s and early 70s British Rail had five "Blue Pullmans", 2 for the London Midland Region and 3 for the Western Region. In some ways they might be thought of as predecessors to the HST with diesel power cars at each end (but they weren't really predecessors).

With the withdrawal of many HSTs in recent years much of the fleet has now gone for scrap. There remain shortened sets on the GWR and Scotrail and full length sets on Cross Country.

One "new" set has been created and is available for tours. It has been painted in a scheme to resemble the "Blue Pullmans" of British Rail and runs as the "Midland Pullman".

Seen here near Castle Cary it was running from Eastleigh (Southampton) to Penzance on 29th May

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Beautiful--and (gasp!) NO yellow "safety panels"! Will the world survive? Thanks for sharing!

What is the car with the blank sides?

Gordon

Hartington Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the 1960s and early 70s British Rail had five
> "Blue Pullmans", 2 for the London Midland Region
> and 3 for the Western Region. In some ways they
> might be thought of as predecessors to the HST
> with diesel power cars at each end (but they
> weren't really predecessors).
>
> With the withdrawal of many HSTs in recent years
> much of the fleet has now gone for scrap. There
> remain shortened sets on the GWR and Scotrail and
> full length sets on Cross Country.
>
> One "new" set has been created and is available
> for tours. It has been painted in a scheme to
> resemble the "Blue Pullmans" of British Rail and
> runs as the "Midland Pullman".
>
> Seen here near Castle Cary it was running from
> Eastleigh (Southampton) to Penzance on 29th May

Very similar, though the power cars in the Pullman Diesel Sets had seating and by all accounts had the best ride of all car types (which given the generally rough ride is saying something!). Apparently though despite the similarity the HST has no directly tradeable lineage to the Blue Pullmans - the designers did not consider it in their development work at all.

Posted from Android

gbmott Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the car with the blank sides?
>
> Gordon

Kitchen car

Posted from Android

Thanks - good to see the photos of it in action. I'm waiting for its Yorkshire events.chris uk

55002 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks - good to see the photos of it in action.
> I'm waiting for its Yorkshire events.chris uk

It's making a trip to York on the 26th

Posted from Android

H
>
> It's making a trip to York on the 26th
>
Typical!! I'm off to Dawlish for the class 50s!!
chris uk

Thanks for posting this -- it certainly brought back some memories, especially of those plastic Kitmaster [ I think it was ] 00 kits, yet showed how a tour service should be profitable in the 21st century

I went to Midland Pullman's website, which I thought was exceptionally well done and informative;  the list of planned tours, many of which are sold out, was interesting, as was the Frequently Asked Questions section.  I imagine without the uncertainty of covid the set might be more intensively worked, but it's a great start.  I thought the approach of a single uniform seating arrangement -- tables for two or four either side of the aisle -- yet with two classes of service, which are differentiated by the meal or drink service, gives excellent flexibility.

That table layout made me get Behrend's Pullman in Europe down from the bookcase to remember how it was arranged in the original sets, which was the same way for both classes of travel.  The back story to that was interesting:  The original planning by BR was that these would be used on services north from the Midlands -- perhaps [ I'm guessing ] a political sop the to Northern-Powerhouse-to-be to counterbalance more London-centric expenditure.  Then BR decided there should be an extra fare charged;  since their agreement with Pullman was that any extra fare service would be Pullman, they would have to be Pullman operated.  This in turn meant services would have to operate to/from London, as that was where Pullman victualing / crewing arrangements were based.  Pullman was also not enthused about the 2+1 seating for first class, which traditionally had always been 1+1, but accepted it.  And their introduction did have one thing in common with the initial HST
introduction:  A strike, by the NUR.  But then had BR ever introduced anything new that didn't have that result [ just kidding -- almost....].....

Two questions, one old, one new:
  -  Was it only the power cars of the Midland Pullmans that were retrofitted with MU ?
  -  What is the history of the new kitchen car -- an ex-TRUK ?

Best regards,

SZ

Steinzeit2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Two questions, one old, one new:
>   -  Was it only the power cars of the Midland
> Pullmans that were retrofitted with MU ?
>   -  What is the history of the new kitchen car
> -- an ex-TRUK ?
>
> Best regards,
>
> SZ

1. Only the ex-Midland Pullman Motor Firsts gained control jumpers on their front ends, yes. Though any vehicle could be formed into any set. In their later years the remaining sets in service were made up of mixed ex-Midland and Western vehicles, but by that point they no longer ran two six-car formations in multiple, only 3 eight-car sets being made up.

2. Both catering cars were 408xx series TFKB. You'd need to do some digging to find out what they commenced life as though!

Posted from Android

Here is one of the original "Pullman" trainsets leaving London Paddington in 1968. By that date, British Railways had absorbed the UK Pullman corporation and reversed the blue and white paint scheme. I understand there were issues with the power cars being underpowered that resulted in these attractive train sets being withdrawn. This is a departing train with a power car trailing. A long gone BR feature was printing the train name and destinations on the window of the guard's compartment visible beside the mid car passenger door.

Note the busy parcels (express) terminal in the background.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/21 08:38 by eminence_grise.

eminence_grise Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is one of the original "Pullman" trainsets
> leaving London Paddington in 1968. By that date,
> British Railways had absorbed the UK Pullman
> corporation and reversed the blue and white paint
> scheme. I understand there were issues with the
> power cars being underpowered that resulted in
> these attractive train sets being withdrawn. This
> is a departing train with a power car trailing. A
> long gone BR feature was printing the train name
> and destinations on the window of the guard's
> compartment visible beside the mid car passenger
> door.
>
> Note the busy parcels (express) terminal in the
> background.

They were withdrawn for a number of reasons:

1 - poor ride
2 - 90mph top speed when by 1972 other 'crack' trains on the Western Region were doing 100.
3 - the introduction of air-conditioned Mk2 coaching stock and those without the need to pay the supplement for better comfort that the Pullmans required
4 - being fixed formation sets and particularly in the way these were was simply too inflexible to suit traffic flows, other Pullmans by this point were loco-hauled and of much greater capacity

Posted from Android

Hexagon789 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eminence_grise Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Here is one of the original "Pullman" trainsets
> > leaving London Paddington in 1968. By that
> date,
> > British Railways had absorbed the UK Pullman
> > corporation and reversed the blue and white
> paint
> > scheme. I understand there were issues with the
> > power cars being underpowered that resulted in
> > these attractive train sets being withdrawn.
> This
> > is a departing train with a power car trailing.
> A
> > long gone BR feature was printing the train
> name
> > and destinations on the window of the guard's
> > compartment visible beside the mid car
> passenger
> > door.
> >
> > Note the busy parcels (express) terminal in the
> > background.
>
> They were withdrawn for a number of reasons:
>
> 1 - poor ride
> 2 - 90mph top speed when by 1972 other 'crack'
> trains on the Western Region were doing 100.
> 3 - the introduction of air-conditioned Mk2
> coaching stock and those without the need to pay
> the supplement for better comfort that the
> Pullmans required
> 4 - being fixed formation sets and particularly in
> the way these were was simply too inflexible to
> suit traffic flows, other Pullmans by this point
> were loco-hauled and of much greater capacity
>
> Posted from Android

Not sure about no.2, in 1972 the Western Region didn't have any 100 mph motive power. The 50s were on the LMR, the 47s were limited to 95 mph and the Westerns (class 52) to 90 mph. HSTs were still four years away. I think the main reasons were, as you said, the introduction of better riding non-supplement stock and the non standard nature of the Blue Pullmans with their NBL / MAN engines and expensive crewing arrangements.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/21 15:24 by 86235.

86235 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hexagon789 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > eminence_grise Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Here is one of the original "Pullman"
> trainsets
> > > leaving London Paddington in 1968. By that
> > date,
> > > British Railways had absorbed the UK Pullman
> > > corporation and reversed the blue and white
> > paint
> > > scheme. I understand there were issues with
> the
> > > power cars being underpowered that resulted
> in
> > > these attractive train sets being withdrawn.
> > This
> > > is a departing train with a power car
> trailing.
> > A
> > > long gone BR feature was printing the train
> > name
> > > and destinations on the window of the guard's
> > > compartment visible beside the mid car
> > passenger
> > > door.
> > >
> > > Note the busy parcels (express) terminal in
> the
> > > background.
> >
> > They were withdrawn for a number of reasons:
> >
> > 1 - poor ride
> > 2 - 90mph top speed when by 1972 other 'crack'
> > trains on the Western Region were doing 100.
> > 3 - the introduction of air-conditioned Mk2
> > coaching stock and those without the need to
> pay
> > the supplement for better comfort that the
> > Pullmans required
> > 4 - being fixed formation sets and particularly
> in
> > the way these were was simply too inflexible to
> > suit traffic flows, other Pullmans by this
> point
> > were loco-hauled and of much greater capacity
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> Not sure about no.2, in 1972 the Western Region
> didn't have any 100 mph motive power. The 50s were
> on the LMR, the 47s were limited to 95 mph and the
> Westerns (class 52) to 90 mph. HSTs were still
> four years away. I think the main reasons were, as
> you said, the introduction of better riding
> non-supplement stock and the non standard nature
> of the Blue Pullmans with their NBL / MAN engines
> and expensive crewing arrangements.

The first 50s arrived in 1972, and the WR had 100mph track since April 1966 when certain weight restricted services were permitted 100mph with double headed 105mph re-geared Class 37s. These were replaced with Westerns/47s in September retaining the accelerated schedules initially. In 1968 5 minutes recovery time was added.

The timings were accelerated again with the Class 50s.

The Blue Pullmans were never timed very fast throughout their lives, initially they were even slower than the steam hauled Bristolian on the London-Bristol run.

Fair enough, my memory must be playing tricks. When I went London to Glasgow in the summer of 1973 I thought we had double headed 50s from Crewe, didn't realise they were already heading west.

86235 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fair enough, my memory must be playing tricks.
> When I went London to Glasgow in the summer of
> 1973 I thought we had double headed 50s from
> Crewe, didn't realize they were already heading
> west.

I think you did.  According to B. Perren in the May '73 MR, for the 1973 Summer service the six pairs of Anglo-Scottish trains were to be worked by pairs of 50's working special Glasgow-Crewe diagrams, despite the wire being energized through to Preston.

There's another good article by him in the March '71 issue discussing the Western Region's forthcoming timetable plans.  At that time WR longer distance passenger traffic was somewhat buoyant -- London-Bristol traffic being up over 7 % -- but the forthcoming completion of the M4 motorway to the Bristol and Severn Bridge areas meant new competition from both the private car at the top end, and coach services at the low end.  But with the increase in traffic, WR could run more services, and this gave them the opportunity to increase the commercial speed, without raising the 90 mph limit, by spreading out intermediate stops amongst different trains, and running a new Bristol - London service nonstop, a half hour earlier than a Blue.
Further, these additional services could be met with no or little additional stock, thanks to intensive utilization -- some sets made five [ one way ] Bristol - London trips a day, with South Wales sets getting up to three trips.  Further, in 1972 it was planned to have fifty of the new a/c Mk II cars to form five trainsets for the Bristol service.  I believe it would be the combination of these two factors that would make the Blue Pullmans uneconomic:
    -  Intensive utilization of any Pullman stock, even the new LMR ones, gave problems.  WR did try, with the Oxford round trip, etc, but it just wasn't there;  usually it's only the peak services that are revenue positive, and even then perhaps just in one direction only
    -  The new a/c stock would provide equal comfort [ less the at-seat meal service of course ] to a greater number of passengers of both classes.

Ironically, when the 50's were getting into their stride on the WR, their 100 mph ability -- and the WR did not have that much 100 mph territory from the 2 x Type 3 days -- would come in handy not in reducing transit times, but in keeping them, as PW work for the forthcoming HSDT service eroded schedules.

Best regards, SZ

86235 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fair enough, my memory must be playing tricks.
> When I went London to Glasgow in the summer of
> 1973 I thought we had double headed 50s from
> Crewe, didn't realise they were already heading
> west.

They did indeed still have double 50s (in theory if not always in practice) from London to Glasgow until electrification was completed and the full electric timetable commenced in May 1974. However, by May the previous year the Western already had eight 50s on its books, these and the train heat fitted 47s being required particularly for the new Mk2E air conditioned stock introduced in May 1973.

Posted from Android

> I think you did.  According to B. Perren in the
> May '73 MR, for the 1973 Summer service the six
> pairs of Anglo-Scottish trains were to be worked
> by pairs of 50's working special Glasgow-Crewe
> diagrams, despite the wire being energized through
> to Preston.
>
> There's another good article by him in the March
> '71 issue discussing the Western Region's
> forthcoming timetable plans.  At that time WR
> longer distance passenger traffic was somewhat
> buoyant -- London-Bristol traffic being up over 7
> % -- but the forthcoming completion of the M4
> motorway to the Bristol and Severn Bridge areas
> meant new competition from both the private car at
> the top end, and coach services at the low end. 
> But with the increase in traffic, WR could run
> more services, and this gave them the opportunity
> to increase the commercial speed, without raising
> the 90 mph limit, by spreading out intermediate
> stops amongst different trains, and running a new
> Bristol - London service nonstop, a half hour
> earlier than a Blue.
> Further, these additional services could be met
> with no or little additional stock, thanks to
> intensive utilization -- some sets made five [ one
> way ] Bristol - London trips a day, with South
> Wales sets getting up to three trips.  Further,
> in 1972 it was planned to have fifty of the new
> a/c Mk II cars to form five trainsets for the
> Bristol service.  I believe it would be the
> combination of these two factors that would make
> the Blue Pullmans uneconomic:
>     -  Intensive utilization of any Pullman
> stock, even the new LMR ones, gave problems.  WR
> did try, with the Oxford round trip, etc, but it
> just wasn't there;  usually it's only the peak
> services that are revenue positive, and even then
> perhaps just in one direction only
>     -  The new a/c stock would provide equal
> comfort [ less the at-seat meal service of course
> ] to a greater number of passengers of both
> classes.
>
> Ironically, when the 50's were getting into their
> stride on the WR, their 100 mph ability -- and the
> WR did not have that much 100 mph territory from
> the 2 x Type 3 days -- would come in handy not in
> reducing transit times, but in keeping them, as PW
> work for the forthcoming HSDT service eroded
> schedules.
>
> Best regards, SZ

Indeed, there were only two 100mph sections on the Great Western Main Line, these may have still been the only such sections until the line was upgraded for 125mph running.

Posted from Android

As a follow-on to the above posts:

A.  From a March '73 MR article by Brian Perren:  In 1967 following the electrification to Euston the LMR introduced an Executive express with a supplementary fare as a replacement for the clientele of the withdrawn WR Blue Pullman;  this was a morning and evening express service to/from London formed of a special set of stock with two full kitchens, a large catering staff serving meals to all passengers at their seats.  While the up morning service did quite well, the return at 17.45 did not load as well, nor were the catering services used as much.  Further, the rake made only two round trips per day, compared with three for the standard sets on that service.  Hence it was withdrawn, but the LMR did provide a replacement:  It now became possible to purchase a combined seat reservation / breakfast ticket in either class on not only the train on the Executive's schedule, now formed of Mk IId stock, but the trains on either side of it;  this not only proved popular, but allowed the catering arrangements to be tailored to the demand, and the set could do another round trip.

B.  In that same issue C.J. Allen, in his last article before his death, quotes Derek Cross as follows:
   "I had a trip in the leading diesel cab of the 07.20 from Glasgow soon after it began to be hauled by two Class 50s, and when the Inspector who accompanied me pointed out to the driver that he was dropping time, that worthy replied 'I dinna care what they folk in the timetables say, but 75 an hour is quite fast enough fur ony train to go' ".   Classic BR !

Best, SZ
 

Steinzeit2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a follow-on to the above posts:
>
> A.  From a March '73 MR article by Brian
> Perren:  In 1967 following the electrification to
> Euston the LMR introduced an Executive express
> with a supplementary fare as a replacement for the
> clientele of the withdrawn WR Blue Pullman;  this
> was a morning and evening express service to/from
> London formed of a special set of stock with two
> full kitchens, a large catering staff serving
> meals to all passengers at their seats.  While
> the up morning service did quite well, the return
> at 17.45 did not load as well, nor were the
> catering services used as much.  Further, the
> rake made only two round trips per day, compared
> with three for the standard sets on that
> service.  Hence it was withdrawn, but the LMR did
> provide a replacement:  It now became possible to
> purchase a combined seat reservation / breakfast
> ticket in either class on not only the train on
> the Executive's schedule, now formed of Mk IId
> stock, but the trains on either side of it;  this
> not only proved popular, but allowed the catering
> arrangements to be tailored to the demand, and the
> set could do another round trip.
>
> Best, SZ
>  
Do you mean the Manchester Pullman, which ran with its special air conditioned Mk 2 cars for 20 years before they were replaced by Mk 3 stock?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Pullman



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/21 14:09 by 86235.