Steam & Excursion > What schedule automatic brake valve on 4014?

Key word search didn't help. Thank you for information!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/19 10:19 by eljay.

8-ET.

Posted from iPhone

Thanks much! IIRC, ATSF 3751 also has the 8-ET. This leads me to believe 8 valves were state-of-the-art when the "big" locomotives were built (?)   24-RL was not yet in the picture (?)

eljay Wrote:
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> Thanks much! IIRC, ATSF 3751 also has the 8-ET.

As well as SP 4449.

> This leads me to believe 8 valves were
> state-of-the-art when the "big" locomotives were
> built (?)

Yes.

  24-RL was not yet in the picture (?)

Correct.


Lastly, just what is "schedule automative (sic) brake valve" in your subject title?

Just operator error stemming from caffeine deficiency . . .
> Lastly, just what is "schedule automative (sic)
> brake valve" in your subject title?

Actually the 3751 has a 6-ET with an extra portion to give a penalty brake application. But yes, most modern steam power had the 8-ET. A very few late on had a 24 stand- Pennsylvania T-1’s and some N&W power if I remember right.

Posted from iPhone

flash34 Wrote:
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> Actually the 3751 has a 6-ET with an extra portion
> to give a penalty brake application.
>
> Posted from iPhone

That would be in line with my recollection. I don't recall it having a "First Service" position in lieu of the "Holding" position which, I believe, is one of the differences between the #8 and the #6.

eljay Wrote:
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> Just operator error stemming from caffeine
> deficiency . . .
> > Lastly, just what is "schedule automative (sic)
> > brake valve" in your subject title?

"Schedule" was (is?) the term used in the air brake industry where "system" would otherwise be used.  "Automative" is a typo.

-LD

LD...

Gotta watch this cheap-o “word processor”,   It maddeningly anticipates your typing and decides to make changes like
‘automatic’ to ‘automotive’,  as you’re typing..

My I-pad doesn’t handle the ‘spell-check feature’ at all ...if I try clicking on it, the whole program goes to a blank screen, with no cursor, and I can’t back out of it..  while using my I-pad...

I hope the new owner of TO buys a more capable spell checker, that works on all our displays..

IMHO...

W.

"Saw the posts where the ATSF 3751 brakestand was mentioned. Two swings and 2 misses. The 3751 has a Union Switch and Signal HC2. The brake positions on the automatic are identical to a No. 6, however the HC2 was designed for ATS. Also, the HC2 has ports at the bottom where it can be configured with jumpers to change from ATS to PTC and or cab signals. I don't know what else it can do, however it was very innovative for the day." -3751 crews
 

wcamp1472 Wrote:
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>
> I hope the new owner of TO buys a more capable
> spell checker, that works on all our displays..
>
> IMHO...
>
> W.

New owner??????

Mike

 

When & If someone steps up..
In the future...

W.

Posted from iPhone

I tip my hat to the UP Crew along with 4449 and 3751 gangs to keeping the "proper" air brake systems on thier locomotives.  It seems that modern preservation efforts are quick to replace the air with modern #26 air brakes.  Part of what we do in preserving the history of our beloved machines is to preserve the methods of operation.  Knowing how to manipulate a vintage air brake system is just as important as knowing how to work the throttle and reverse gear. 

Two thumbs up for you folks....

The decision to change brake schedules isn't typically because a steam operator wants the "new stuff" or has no appreciation for the traditional equipment.  It is driven by the economics of maintaining an operating a locomotive without the support systems the railroads had to maintain the same engine.  For example, No.8ET brake systems were only used late in the steam era on very large engines like 844 and the 4014.  Once they disappeared, the market for the equipment disappeared, and the air brake companies obsoleted everything that was No.8 only.  No. 6 equipment by comparison was far more common with a longer economic life, even making it onto diesels, and therefore it is still supported for some components.  Now a Railroad like UP, which had system air brake shops and never retired it's last No.8-equipped engine, is another matter.  They likely have a large inventory of parts and spares, and the brake test racks to support servicing the equipment.  Someone pulling and engine out of a park, like the AT&SF 2926 group, does not have that advantage.  In their case, major parts of the No.8 equipment were missing or damaged, so they had really no choice to make the change.  The advantage of using modern equipment is that anytime you have a brake valve problem a replacement is likely close at hand, and if your a long way from home base, that can be the difference between running or cancelling a trip. 

What is the better equipment for a steam engine?  No question is is No.6 or No.8 equipment because it is brass-on-brass (piston/slide valve) technology (as was 24RL).  The rubber o-rings and diaphragms in the 26L equipment is intolerant of high heat and steam compressor oils, so they don't run the full life that they can on a diesel.  Measured against the issues that can arise on the old equipment in the field when something breaks, the 26L equipment does make sense.  The only engine that I am aware of running with No.8 outside of of the UP fleet is SP 4449, but there may be others.  Doyle and his crew are some of the last masters of No.8 equipment, making some of their own parts to keep her running.  Impressive, yes, but added work needed for an already labor-intensive machine,  I would think most people can understand why 26L is the choice for new operators.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/19 14:51 by SilverPeakRail.

For  a simple solution, use 6N distributing valve, operated with a 26L cab brake stand...
See schedule “26NL” arrangement. Very Nice.

The 6N Distributing valve uses O-rings, and modern ‘Relay Valve’ componenents, again using O-rings, etc.
Very good way to go, for modest-size locos..

​W.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
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> I hope the new owner of TO buys a more capable
> spell checker, that works on all our displays..
>
> IMHO...
>
> W.

Is there a new owner of trainorders.com I tried to find more info using the search feature but couldn't

Refer to recent comments from the Webmaster...

W.

Most or all of NKP S-class  Berkshires had a special Westinghouse Air Brake variation on the original 6ET air brake system.  When the original overhaul occurred in 1976-79, Westinghouse had long since discontinued parts for the special orders of the Nickel Plate Road brake stands.  That pushed FWRHS to skip ahead a couple decades to the 26L brake system.  I don't think the FWRHS has never regretted it.

The 765 has operated on many different lines, both Class One and Short Lines, and even if the mechanical and operating people don't know what all of the other steam related equipment is or how it works, they DO know what a 26L brake stand is and it seems to give them some comfort to see an "old friend" in the cab of the 765.

NKP779 Wrote:
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> Most or all of NKP S-class  Berkshires had a
> special Westinghouse Air Brake variation on the
> original 6ET air brake system.  When the original
> overhaul occurred in 1976-79, Westinghouse had
> long since discontinued parts for the special
> orders of the Nickel Plate Road brake stands. 
> That pushed FWRHS to skip ahead a couple decades
> to the 26L brake system.  I don't think the FWRHS
> has never regretted it.
>
> The 765 has operated on many different lines, both
> Class One and Short Lines, and even if the
> mechanical and operating people don't know what
> all of the other steam related equipment is or how
> it works, they DO know what a 26L brake stand is
> and it seems to give them some comfort to see an
> "old friend" in the cab of the 765.

As follow up; as part of the original 765 "restoration", a number of the board members ask me about up-grading to a "more modern" brake valve in the cab. A number of reasons was sited:

1) Any railroad Engineer called to operate the 765 could be taught the fine art of throttle vs. reverse gear setting, but a foreign brake valve might be just too much to grasp. 

2) There were no service parts available for the original #6 brake valve.

3) Should an "issue" occur with the brake valve out on the road, the standard 26C brake valve was available at virtually every engine servicing terminal.

Give those marching orders, I consulted with the EMD Air Brake Engineer (in the Engineering Dept), Harry Kilgore, and explained the situation. Once provided an air brake schematic for NKP 765, Mr. Kilgore designed a step-by-step conversion, using the existing distributing valve, plus the replacement of the original; #6 cab mounted brake valve with the 26C brake valve. Additional components and piping were carefully spelled out, and as a result NKP 765 was up-graded to the 26NL brake system. 

As a result, the 765 was the first steam locomotive up-graded to the 26NL air brake system, all developed/designed by the EMD Engineering Department, along with the second Diesel MU Control Box (American Freedom Train #4449 being the first with an EMD designed & built Diesel MU Control Box).

SilverPeakRail Wrote:
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> The only engine that I am aware of running with No.8
> outside of of the UP fleet is SP 4449, but there may be others.

The SP&S 700 continues to use its 8-ET brake.